WTF is COPY and Why it's NOT Just Words on Page

Today's episode is SUPER insightful as I chat with Samantha Campen on a brand new episode of "EmpowHERing Coffee Convos with Jessi".

Join us for a myth busting session on Copywriting, including a super important discussion on "Copy" vs "Content"

Sam is the founder of Moxie Consulting. She is a copywriter for sassy folks and she is a brand voice strategist. So also very special note, Sam is also the newest member of the official TWTF Team and I literally cannot contain my excitement. More on that soon!

Connect with her below!
➡️  https://www.moxieconsultingllc.com/
➡️  https://www.instagram.com/moxiecopy/

Prefer to WATCH the conversation? Find us over on the 'Tube!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CUbtfGfKgEg

Transcript

Jessi Cabanin: 0:04

Hey girl, hey, are you ready for some real talk? If you are a female entrepreneur who has ever felt like a total failure, or maybe even a frequent flyer of imposter syndrome, this podcast is for you. I'm your host Jessi a millennial business owner, boy mom and creative genius helping women bring their business dreams to life. After 10 years of building numerous creative brands from the ground up, I'm ready to get real about what actually goes on behind the scenes of building your very own empire feel you're opening up brand new mindset for me and I really want that for you too, because honestly, I am just so over society's definition of what it means to live a successful life. So together, we are going to create and navigate a version of success that works for you. Together, we can redefine fabulous. Okay guys, welcome to today's episode of empowering coffee combos. I'm Jesse, the founder and chief empowerment Officer of this way to fabulous and today is very special. Today I'm here with Samantha campin. She is the founder of Moxie consulting. She is a copywriter for sassy folks, okay, and she is a brand voice strategist. Okay? She loves plants, books, animals and watching baking shows because who doesn't right. But most of all, Sam loves a good chance to dismantle the patriarchy and make sure that women get their fucking turn at the podium. Okay, now you guys know just from that statement, I am here for all of that. And I know plenty of you guys are too. So also very special note Sam is also the newest member of the official this way to fabulous team and I cannot literally cannot contain my excitement. More on that soon. I promise. That's now what we're talking about today. But before we start, Sam, why don't you tell everybody a little bit about yourself? Just kind of a quick synopsis of your life story maybe and where are you at in life right now.

Samantha Campen: 1:55

A quick synopsis of my life story. I will spare I will spare everyone the early beginnings. But I've always been a lover of reading and writing. I was an English major in college. Like a lot of English majors. When I got out of college, I didn't do any jobs relating to being an English major. But no matter what I did, I was in sales. And you know, but I always had a way of communicating. And that was really important in sales. And I think that my English background helped me with that. And then in the early to mid 2000s When blogging was like the cool new thing. Oh, yeah.

Jessi Cabanin: 2:45

But when that was like, social platform, right,

Samantha Campen: 2:48

right. I mean, like I was an OG blogger like that is when Yeah, edit girl. Right. And so then somehow, I got approached by Nintendo's marketing company, and they wanted me to be an intentional brand. Like influencer, there was like 50 of us, throughout the country. And I'm like, okay, so then I kind of got more aware of reaching an audience, you know, like, who is my audience, and my authentic voice, and social media, and then you know, like the Facebook's, and all of that, and Twitter before it turned into a dumpster fire. Like a long time ago. And that just got me really into social media. And then with my sales background, I've always been passionate about things that I love. And so then kind of connecting the two, it just kind of made sense. So then along the way, my husband started his own marketing and PR consultancy. And with some clients, I would help with the social media. He would do you know, 360 campaigns, and I would help with social media. I was home with the kids. And that was just something I was doing like to help him and on the side. And then the pandemic hit, and

Jessi Cabanin: 4:22

dammit, you're not allowed to say the real word because then Google starts showing us all things. We call it the pandammit,

Samantha Campen: 4:28

pandemic. It's literally what it was and his business kind of, you know, fizzled a little bit. We didn't know what we were going to do. We're trying to regroup and then I said, Okay, well let me just see if I can get some writing jobs, you know, if I see anything online, and things started coming up, and I was really liking it and what was really cool is they were more my ideal client than my husband's because That was like his company and I was just writing for like all of his people. So then I kind of liked being in charge and then that kind of set me on the path to Moxie as it is today.

Jessi Cabanin: 5:12

That's awesome. That is awesome. So how long has Moxie actually been a thing?

Samantha Campen: 5:18

Like an official LLC? It will be. It will be two years in May, I should probably find out Max's birthday. That's that's important. Don't

Jessi Cabanin: 5:30

worry. I don't really know mine either. Right.

Samantha Campen: 5:33

So like, I was just kind of chugging along and like doing my own clients. And then I was in a, like, masterclass group. And they're like, We think this, like, this sounds like you and your voice, and you shouldn't be under his LLC. Like, you need your own brand and everything. I'm like, Oh, this was never the direction I expected to go. Like, I was never like, I'm going to have my own business. And I'm going to be the one in charge and. And so then I told Brian, and he's like, get it, he's, like, go out there. He's like, you kick ass, you know, you, you your LLC versus my LLC, like, you know, it'll be like a cage match. And it'll be awesome. And you just do it. And then it just, I'm, I'm learning along the way. But I think I've always had a sense of who I am, and my writing and my personality. And once I finally learned to lean into it. That's when things just really started happening. And then I felt most comfortable. Instead of being this professional version of what, you know, you just kind of have ingrained in your head.

Jessi Cabanin: 6:51

Yeah, like a society standard that people just kind of assume, is what they should be doing. Yeah, for sure. And I really like how you talk about leaning in, I think that's something that a lot of people can use the help and the reminder of being able to lean in. And you know, for some people, it's more risky than others, and depending on their circumstance and their situation. But the ideology behind leaning in remains the same that, you know, if the universe is kind of pulling you towards something that is meant for you leaning into that can completely change your life, it could completely change that trajectory trajectory, of like, where you're going, and what you want to do. I think that's amazing. I love that. So I am personally so excited that you're here. So just a little backstory for you guys. Sam and I were actually we had a team photo shoot last weekend, and two weeks ago now I don't even know. It was awesome. Like so awesome. So she is currently if you are watching, or if you are not watching the YouTube version, she is currently wearing the t shirt that we had made for all of us that basically it says that she's award wizard, and we all had T shirts that had our, you know our niche on them. And it was really fun. So sitting here wearing this shirt today is like just an extra layer of fun for me. So okay, let's let's dive right in here. So let's backtrack a little bit here. What big thing happened for you first, motherhood or having a successful career? Maybe not even Moxie per se, but like having a successful career? What came first for you?

Samantha Campen: 8:28

Well, I wouldn't even say that. I've had a career prior to my oldest is 15. Okay, so I just had jobs. You know, like, they weren't a career. I wasn't really looking, you know, I want to grow 10 years down the road with this company or whatever. It was just like, okay, what can I do that I'm pretty okay at that would help support my family that was just like, you know, what, what it is? So definitely motherhood, motherhood first. So I have a 15 year old and a 10 year old. So it's nice that they're not like we to, you know, as I'm starting and growing a business, it's very helpful that it's, uh huh.

Jessi Cabanin: 9:22

Tell me more. Right? No, I

Samantha Campen: 9:24

know. Cash. Yes. But starting your own business during a pandemic when your kids are home. And you're also scared out of your mind because it was the early days like what's going on? Are we in that Will we have enough food Will we have enough you know? So that was an enjoyable, don't recommend zero audits. But the cool thing to you know, kind of finds Some ray of light from the pandemic. So many businesses were born from the pandemic. A lot of them were women, because they had kids at home, they couldn't go into an office, maybe they were laid off, which don't get me started. So, so they had to, you know, women are scrappy women, you know, get shit done. So they're just like, okay, what can I do from home? What is accessible for me and works with, you know, my family, and a lot of businesses were created. And that is so badass. So, um, and some, you know, small businesses already that were developed, were struggling. So it's just like, Who can we amplify? Who can we lift up? Who can we promote, you know, things like that. So that got me kind of, you know, really lit up. So,

Jessi Cabanin: 10:55

yeah, I feel like we we as women became the hot commodity in the pandemic, because, yeah, people were struggling and you know, who came in and swooped up and like, save the day for a lot of people asked women who are out here killing the game, like, right? You wish too, used to

Samantha Campen: 11:15

doing 1015 things at once used to, you know, managing all of like, the, the mental load. So it's just like, Okay, I've kind of been training for this, I mean, that anyone should be thrown into a pandemic, because it was scary as hell. But it's like, okay, I'm used to adapting on a dime, you know, because motherhood, you know, our, to our day to day is 1,000%. Right? Right. Yeah. So, um, we have less fear, I feel

Jessi Cabanin: 11:47

like in pivot in the in the need to pivot, and it'll like figure things out and try new things. Like, I feel like women held a lot less fear in that aspect. Because that's kind of where a lot of us thrive is like, pivoting and making, you know, quick decisions and having to fix things and things like that. Like, I feel like that's sort of a maternal instinct, in a sense. And, and that was something that in the pandemic really changed things for people, like really, really changed things for people. I think that you have a really unique story a little bit here, because I do feel like a lot of women that I've talked to have younger kids, when they are starting their business and, you know, made it through the pandemic and stuff. So I'm curious, a little bit more about kind of the struggles you faced, as a mom, starting this business, in the pandemic, with older children? What kind of struggles did you have? And like, how did you overcome our work through

Samantha Campen: 12:45

them? Well, I mean, the, the biggest struggle was them doing virtual school. Because, you know, I'm either trying to meet with my my mastermind group, meeting with my strategist, you know, Zoom calls, trying to get some things done, either for my website or for a client. And then, but, you know, my, my mic isn't working, or is your internet down? Why isn't my Chromebook working, or my daughter, so the pandemic started the last half when she was in first grade. So then she was in virtual school in second grade, and that's when I was trying to, you know, get things going. So as a second grader, I mean, I, not even just my daughter, but the setting and the attention and the patience, so she was always popping in. And are you in a meeting? I know, I should be doing my lesson. But I just wanted to come in and tell you about my dream last night, and you know, stuff like that. So, um, you know, a line, the line got blurry between absolutely, absolutely did and but during that time, like, what are you supposed to do? Like, you can't make it perfect. Nothing is the best you can. That's what and the best you can change is every day. Absolutely. And I saw I saw a quote that said, even if you only have 40%, to give on any given day, and you give 40% You gave 100% of yourself because that is what you were able to do that day. That's a great reference like that. Right? And I'm sorry, I can't attribute it to anyone I don't know who said it was not me. I'm not taking credit, I promise. But yeah, every day every day was different and new stresses and but I think no matter what, what anyone was doing during that time, we were all going through the ups and downs, the stresses the interruptions, not having a routine because everything was turned upside down, you know, all of that.

Jessi Cabanin: 15:09

Yeah, I think the key here, too, that a lot of listeners will be able to relate to is you showed up, it didn't really matter what it looked like when you showed up, but you showed up. And the important part of that is not how you show up. It's that you show up. And I think that that's something that a lot of women in general struggle with, especially when things get crazy, like it did during the pandemic. So yeah, I think that's I think that's, that holds true to pretty much people of any age minus the fact that like, when my when the pain I'm in hate my son was two and a half. And I know school for those little first. Right,

Samantha Campen: 15:51

right. Yeah, that was a whole different ballgame. But

Jessi Cabanin: 15:54

I think it's, I think it's, it's the common theme is that you showed up. And that's all that really mattered at that point. That's really all that mattered. Was that true, you showed up and that you never gave up? Yeah. And that you kept going no matter how pretty or nasty, it looked you You did it? Right. So during that time, you know, you were trying to build Moxie. Did you ever have a time when you were like, wanting to quit when you were like, you know, this is too much? I can't do this anymore. Like I can't. Was there any ever a hurdle for you that, you know, maybe set you back a little bit that you questioned if it was something that you were going to continue pursuing?

Samantha Campen: 16:38

Um, I don't think like to that extent, just like, burn it all down. And I'm out. Right? But I mean, there were times when I was super overwhelmed. And I just couldn't pick what was a priority, because they all whatever was in front of me, like building the business reaching out to clients working on Maxi, working on myself working for the client, like it just seemed like everything needed to get done yesterday.

Jessi Cabanin: 17:09

So me every day,

Samantha Campen: 17:11

right? And so I really, I really credit, the cohort that I was in, and the strategist I was working with who I'm still working with today. Where she would just be like, okay, so I see this is overwhelming you. Why do you think that is? And so we kind of talk about it. And she's like, maybe it's the preconceived idea of the way you think it should be done, as opposed to what works for you? And how you want to do it so much. Yes. And it's the shooting all over ourselves, right? Everything is just well, it should be like this, and I should do more, or I should make it better. You know, all of that. And she really helped me kind of realize what was working for me. If I was putting the extra stress on myself, or if it was truly warranted, you know, if not that this ever happened, but just an example like, Well, yeah, you should be stressed out. That was due two weeks ago. Yeah, you? Yeah, maybe the stress can make you finish it or something like that. But instead of Well, are you the only one saying this to yourself? Are you the only one, you know, putting all this pressure on you? So so that's where I got really hung up because I It sounds weird now two years in. But realizing that I was the one in charge and making all the decisions because I'd always worked for people. It's just like, Okay, here's the things you need to do. This is what needs to get done by bla bla, bla, meet your numbers, all that. And, like, in the beginning, I guess I was kind of waiting to be told what to do. And then after a while, it's like, it's me. And then now I was kind of panicking, you know? And then I'm like, oh, it's me. I don't have to work with that type of client. Like that type of client is not my ideal that would stress me the hell out. I get to pick and choose what works for me and my business. And so I guess it's not the stages of grief, but it's just like, Okay, you kind of have to go through the process of evolving, working for someone to working for yourself. And once I kind of got there, then it was like, okay, yeah. Then even if I got stressed, which Hi, you know, like, well, who doesn't? If I was able to be like, Okay, these are my boundaries, this is what I'm doing, this is what I'm not doing. And I will take it from there. And so, you know, I, once I worked through that, then it, it got better. And really, you know,

Jessi Cabanin: 20:19

every, every business is going to have those transitional seasons. You know, every and those seasons, they come back, I mean, don't feel like you're like, I'm just here to tell you that that's gonna come back, and that you're gonna realize that being the one in charge is a double edged sword. Because like, yeah, I get to make all these decisions. And then you're like, Shit, I have to make all of these decisions

Samantha Campen: 20:40

grown up. Like when you have a kid, it's like, Oh, my God. Yes.

Jessi Cabanin: 20:45

And it is really this double edged sword. And I, I really do love all of the memes and rails out there about what people think I do versus like, what I actually do, or these kinds of things, because I think it's really interesting how a lot of entrepreneurs have the same idea of what other people think of what we do, because like, they think like, Man, I think that we kind of like exaggerate a little bit. But there are definitely people who are like, Oh, my God, you have the best light, like you get to make your schedule, whatever the hell you want. I'm like, yeah, and effing sucks most of the time, because it's a lot of extra pressure, to not be told what to do. And you know, and I'm in any season of my business where, you know, I brought on a COO, because I need to be told what to do, I brought on someone to help me with that exact scenario that you set up, like, you just have all these things in front of you. And I am so glad that you cannot see my desk right now, because you will probably have a panic attack. But like, I definitely came to terms with the fact that that was something that I needed in order to continue growing. And I think that's half of the battle, right? Like, actually coming to terms with the fact that something needs to change, or that you need help, right, I am definitely an advocate for asking for help. Because I spent way too long, way too much of my life, trying to do everything by myself. And don't get me wrong, I'm still that person, I still veer that way. It's still like, figured out, but like, I've come to terms with the fact that there is just no room for vertical and horizontal growth at the same time. On your own. There just isn't you just it is like physically not possible. So I think that's I think that's really powerful. And I think that a lot of people can relate to that season of feeling like just kind of unsure not not like you're gonna quit, but just kind of feeling unsure, overwhelmed, not really sure exactly what to tackle first. That's a really common common season. Kids are not

Samantha Campen: 22:51

like, well, and then how many entrepreneurs are just working alone in their house? Yeah. So that having a network, like, yeah, you can hire a CEO, whatever, but just having my networking group that you met with over zoom. Um, so I'm not just in my head, yes, it's time sitting in my office, you know, kids running in or not, like you said, it's just like, you need people who are generally on the same page as you in the same area of business growth that you are, yeah, different industries, you know, you want different, you know, opinions and perspectives, but just not being alone in your head to amplify the stress and the freaking out, you know, so that that's really helpful to reaching out and asking for help, not necessarily task by task basis, but just reaching out to have a support system. Yes, that's,

Jessi Cabanin: 23:58

that's a great point, there's, there's two very different sides to you know, bringing in help one can be actually hiring someone and, and having someone to fulfill some tasks or give you a specific task list. But there's a whole nother way to get help in your growth in your seasons. And that is absolutely surrounding yourself by with other people who are on a similar journey as you, you know, you don't want to be in a room with everybody who's on the same exact journey as well. First of all, nobody's ever on the same exact journey but But you always want to be in a room with someone with people who are all on the exact same journey as you because there's not a lot of learning learning room in there. You want to be in a room with people who are maybe a couple of steps behind you a couple of steps steps ahead of you. That's a really important place to be in order to grow in order to you know, come to terms with wherever you're at and kind of figuring that out. Right. I love that. I think networking is really huge. I do feel like looking back in the last year. I've done a lot more network Working, subconsciously, almost, I do like I do have a networking group that I meet up with once a month. I'm trying to start my own as well closer to where I live. And it's just great to, like, get out there and talk to people not even like, like, be like, be working at home being an entrepreneur is lonely as fuck, right? Like, it's me. My headphones on my mic. Like, my computer screen like, Yeah, this is really heavy in here. Like,

Samantha Campen: 25:28

which is great. You know, like this percentage of the time. Like, I would never want to throw that away. Yeah. But you know, having a reason to put on pants that aren't plastic, and you know, to take a shower. It's just like, I get to go pee today. Yeah. And so it is it is nice.

Jessi Cabanin: 25:53

Okay, random question. Are you an introvert or an extrovert?

Samantha Campen: 25:57

My husband and I were just talking about that the other day. And I said, I think at least with me, it's circumstantial. So I would say prior to the pandemic, I leaned more extrovert, but not like, fully, like, maybe 70%. extrovert. Yeah. I'm a pandemic. I'm like, leave me alone. Yeah. What being stuck in the house with all of us for two years? Didn't really, I'm just like, yeah. So I think now, and I explained it like this. I am still extroverted. I am more guarded with who I spend my energy with, and who I receive my energy from? Yeah. Um, and I need I need it more spread out. Like, I can't have like three major days, like our photoshoot, like, back to back. No, I

Jessi Cabanin: 27:02

was dead for like, two days after.

Samantha Campen: 27:04

That wiped me out. I mean, I loved it. And I was like, electrified and I got so much energy from being with everybody, but I needed recovery. So I'm probably like, more 5050. But it just depends on on who I'm around.

Jessi Cabanin: 27:22

Yeah, for sure. I consider myself an extroverted introvert. So like, I am much more of an introvert I think, but I can extrovert when I want to, and when I need to, but I do, I don't mind being alone, I like AI. To be fair, I have never worked for anybody else. I've never worked for another company, I started my companies out of college, and have pretty much always been in this position. So if I wasn't very good by myself, I feel like I would not be here today anymore. 10 years, 12 years later, still doing what I'm doing. So I'm very good by myself. But as you get older, you know, it's it starts to get really only it starts, you know, you just really have to find that that balance. And I think that that finding the balance is the hardest working part.

Samantha Campen: 28:07

Like you said, especially at this stage in our lives, where we're so busy, either, you know, with kids or not work family, it's just like, Okay, what little time I have, who do I want to give it to? No, which you know, is what it that's exactly what it is who gets the rest of my, my free time and my energy, which might be dangerously low. But who can help me recharge

Jessi Cabanin: 28:34

and I think in that aspect to where I struggle is when I get to that point, I'm like, Okay, I have this like little bit of time, and I need to choose what to do with it. And I want to choose myself, I want to just choose to do whatever I need, I'm at pedicure or massage or whatever. But then I immediately feel guilty that I'm choosing myself over others and I think plenty of women can relate to that. But that is definitely a struggle that I have and I also just have a struggle in general to take a break because I am just a hustler. I just always have been I thrive in chaos. I just mentally do better when I'm when I'm moving when things are busy. And Brown is working with me on that but that is that is definitely kind of like more with that. So okay, so we got a lot to talk about today. Regarding copywriting specifically. Okay, so, but I think before we dive too deep into that, I think we should clarify the what, okay, so I think what copy is is actually kind of one of the most important parts for people to understand because I think that people hear the word copy and they are they just don't really know what that means. So Sam and like the clearest way possible, maybe the most kindergarten way possible. What the f actually is copy.

Samantha Campen: 29:54

Okay, so, copy copy is the words on your marketing. So website, newsletter prints, you know, even billboard if you've got billboards. But it's not just words that the words have a sales push. So it's the difference between copywriting and content writing. So someone on Instagram just writing about, oh, it was a beautiful day we took the kids to the park and here's the sandwich I had at lunch, that's content writing, there's no call to action, there is no click here to buy the sandwich, you know, or whatever. So of course, you're you've got a business, you're getting a spicy, new, beautiful website, you need copy for that. So that is, it's, it's the words that are going on your website. And I think part of

Jessi Cabanin: 31:06

what you said there that was really important was that it's not about the like, the content writing is typically factual or, like about something specific. And when you are building copy, especially on a website, call to actions are obviously very important. But there's also a subliminal messaging in providing that, like, impulse that they need this that, like, you want to approach them in a way that they realize and they feel, right, you're trying to evoke emotion with copy, I think more than in content, most of the time, you're just writing about what it is, it's a lot more factual. And I feel like at least copy is a much more emotionally engaging form of words, or, or how they're

Samantha Campen: 31:58

put together. And when I say with a sales, you know, drive, I'm not talking about the the sleazy, you know, car salesman, or anything like that. But I mean, go to a website, that that's what it is, I don't care what website you go to, I don't care what brand you pick, they have their website up there, so you could buy their goods or services, and you know, business owners, female, small business owners, whoever have websites, so people know about them and engaging and hey, click Make an appointment, you know, download this, whatever. So, I mean, there are so many ways that that it can be done. But you know, just in the most basic way possible. That's that's how I described it. But absolutely, because, you know, sales is evoking emotion. And it is trying to build a connection. Like, how could I have ever lived without that Slap Chop until I saw this commercial? And they were telling me about it, like, oh my gosh, how could I have ever lived without this? resume writer? I mean, me doing it on my own? Oh my gosh, no, of course, I want to make an appointment with her. So, so yes, and I mean, that's, that's when I really get into brand voice and ideal client, but you know that so let's

Jessi Cabanin: 33:22

let's, let's kind of squeeze let's squeeze into that just a tiny bit. So I don't necessarily think we need to talk too much about target client today. i It does have a big part in it so we can touch on it. But I do think brand voice is something that is really important to talk about with copy. Because I think that no matter what, even with even with that definition of copy, people are still thinking that like, okay, it's just a bunch of words on a page, like I'm just gonna go write a bunch of these things and say, Hey, click here, like, okay, no, no, no, no. But no, let's talk a little bit about boy, a brand voice and how you kind of like, need to approach the strategy of building a brand voice.

Samantha Campen: 34:09

So um, and this, this kind of circles back to what I was talking about leaning in. So the people who come to me saying, you know, I need to refresh my website, I've been in business for a while and I want to refresh it, or I'm starting this business, you know, from scratch, I don't have any copy. When when I start asking them about their their brand voice and about what what do you want your company to stand for? What what are the things that your company prides itself on? And, you know, going into more more questions, and then I start asking about the owner of the company. So In this in this scenario, it's just a one person owner, like me and Maxie, it's just me. So I asked about this person, you know, like, what do you like to do for fun? You know, do you what kind of movies do you like, and just get a sense of their personality. And in they're like, Oh, well, I can't put, I can't have that kind of energy on a website, that's not professional. And so that's when I kind of break down. And, you know, say this is for, um, like a fun T Shirt Company, just as an example. So, you want to have that kind of energy. But but then these, these women, in this instance, are just thinking professional, professional, professional, because that is what everybody's been told. And if they came from a corporate culture, and then they're starting their own business, it's yeah, it's drilled into us. And then it's like, well, I need to market to anyone who will buy my stuff. So I need to be as vanilla as possible to not turn anyone away. And that, and I was, I thought the same way, I'm the first person to say that I was like that, too. But it's like you aren't for everyone. Your target audience isn't the entire world like, girl, you can't be everything to everyone. And I say that to all women, even if they don't own businesses, 1,000% Because it's impossible, it's impossible. So leaning in to who you are, and not masking, for whoever is in front of you will organically grow your business and keep you happy and not wanting to just jump in a river, because you will enjoy working with your clients, right? Because yeah, you show who you are and who your business is, then the people who aren't for you won't even bother you. Like they won't even schedule an appointment with you. Yep. So it is showing and selling to the people. And I know we're not going to dive into target audience, but it really is connected, because your brand voice will attract who you want to work with. And this is meant for you. So it's very important to get that out on the website. And just because my website has swear words and emojis, that doesn't mean that anyone I write for that's how it's gonna be, of course not. You don't have to curse like on your website. But if you've got like a phrase that you always say, and that you're probably going to be saying, you know, to your clients, or whatever, then yeah, let them know who you are. Because I also say this, what you sell either services or like a tangible product, you're not the only one. So there's other competition out there. So what sets you apart from the other people selling chairs, or selling candles or whatever is you they are signing on to by you, and your personality and your customer experience. So we need to make sure that they connect with you. So that all goes into the copy. And it it doesn't have to sound like a robot that be sounding like a robot isn't professional like that isn't the the image that we need to constantly hold in our heads? And no, you don't want to offend people. Of course not. But

Jessi Cabanin: 39:20

well, there's a lot. Yeah, I mean, there's a fine line between getting over political or over. You know, there's definitely a line but I will say due from my own personal experience that you know, last year when I relaunched the entire structure of my brand I relaunched my website I relaunched everything. I absolutely the biggest difference between the last season of that business and the end, the beginning of the new one was by far the copy and the way I approached speaking to people, okay, so my secret tip, my secret tip, okay, was that I use my phone, and I put on the dictation and I would speak to my Phone as though I was speaking to someone. And that is more along the lines of how I wrote my copy. No, I did not hire a professional copywriter because Sam did not fall out of the sky when I was in this season of my business. But instead, I, me and my, my past business partner, you know, kind of set out to figure out how we're going to get this out there. And the biggest tip I had was literally speaking to my phone, and it feels so silly, but it is way easier to make conversational copy that way than it is to type it because we are conditioned to type a certain way we just are. We just we have that ingrained in us that like this, this is the proper period in the proper space and the proper capitalization. You know, I'm not saying you should have grammar errors over your website, definitely don't do that. But like, no, don't make me wait. Yeah, the way to approach it is you need to be speaking to the client, you need to be speaking to the potential viewer who's coming onto your site, my past site, embarrassingly enough, I mean, I like put that thing together like real fast, because I was like, oh, people keep asking me to do these projects. Like, I need a website. The BIGGEST EMBARRASSMENT of that looking back was that that website was literally all about me all about me. It's like, look what I've done. Look how old I am. Look what kind of puppy I have look like it was all about. Here's all the things that I do. And the biggest transition was when I started talking about the things that like they get out of it what emotion like what emotion Do you want them to evoke? What connection do you want to make to make them feel like oh my god, she knows exactly what I'm talking about. Like she knows exactly how much can I will tell you my conversion rate of people who now I'm not saying I have 100 leads a day. I'm not saying that, like my leads went through the roof. But my conversion rate went absolutely through the roof because I book 80% of the people I talk to, because when they talked to me on Zoom, they felt like they already knew me, because they like went through my website. And they're like, Wow, she's definitely who I thought she was. Yesterday, I had a call. And this was like a really proud moment. For me. I think for my brand build. I had a call yesterday and she was like, oh my god, she was like, I just loved your website, I loved the way that it was, you know, I love the way that it was put together. I loved the verbiage that you were using, you know, just felt like so like, she gets me and I was like, That's so amazing. And she goes, I mean, look at your background is even like on brand. And I was like

Samantha Campen: 42:25

it's me, right? So

Jessi Cabanin: 42:27

cohesive, your emails, everything was like so cohesive. And I'm like, That is the point when you are building a brand. It is not a logo, it is not the words on is not words on a page. It is not the color palette you choose. It is the collective way that you approach your brand and how you present your brand to the world, the emotion that you evoke, to the people around you, the people who are all coming to me as leads right now are people who are like, Oh, I saw your website, or I saw this website you did for someone or I saw these photos you did for someone and they had just a great experience. It is all about the experience. It is I am very firm, in when I'm like doing business coaching with all my clients, I'm very firm in the fact that people do not buy your service or your product they buy the experience that you give them. Okay, not even just the experiences the experience that you give them. You Yes, like like Sam said, there are there are 1000s Billions of people doing the same thing that you are. And instead of worrying about the competition and worrying about what everybody else is doing, recognize the fact that no one is you no one is doing things exactly the way you can do them. And that is where the real power comes into it. And then obviously bringing it to life in your copy and being able to present it that trust me guys, if you update the copy on your website, in a manner of how you would speak to people and the problems you solve for people. I can almost guarantee you that conversion rates will skyrocket because you are actually talking to this specific person and you are attracting vibe attracts your tribe you're like,

Samantha Campen: 44:05

absolutely right. And when I have very similar experiences, when people meet with me, they're just like, I knew from the minute I clicked on your website, and the first thing you see is I want to amplify the shit out of your brand. I would say nine out of 10 times the first thing out of people's mouths when they meet me is when I saw the word shit, I knew I had to meet you. I knew that you were the one for me. And then they kept scrolling, you know the website and I get the same thing. It's like I was I'm talking to the person that I was reading on the website like you are exactly like you, you know wrote on the website, and that is the biggest compliment and like you said the conversion because the people who are then booking the appointments or you know whatever are already He pretty much sold in the back. 1,000%. Yes, yes. They're not going to waste their time. You know, like, it saves everybody's time weeding out the people who are not for you. Absolutely. That saves time, that saves money. And it, it is it is just even without going into SEO and all of that. Just having the the language and the energy that represents you and your brand. Is, is priceless,

Jessi Cabanin: 45:35

for sure. And you have to remember you guys, we can't be everywhere for everyone. Okay, so the point of your website should sort of be away for you to be there for everyone. Right, you answer their question, you answer a lot of the questions that you know, people have already you attack those certain points so that when they do come to your website, it's kind of lucky. Yeah, no, you're not that should absolutely be part of your strategy. And I think that it's also just important to recognize that it is probably one of the biggest things that people put to the bottom of their list of priorities when maybe building a brand or their website,

Samantha Campen: 46:17

right. I mean, it's probably unintentional. Like, oh, what's, what's the big deal? You know, like it, I think it's just from lack of lack of knowledge, of just the full understanding of, of what copy is, for sure.

Jessi Cabanin: 46:36

And I think that most people can already understand why you are a team member, why you fit and so freaking, like, just so frickin Great. Fun story, or fun fact, one of our recent clients actually thought that we were related. And she was like, Was she your sister or your cousin? And I was like, No, it's just like, oh, my god, you guys are like, so much the same. And I was like,

Samantha Campen: 47:00

yeah, she's like, You guys talk the same. And that's when I said, well, she's from the south. So maybe just any Midwesterner, you know, sounds sounds similar, but she's like, Yeah, you talk the same, like, same and I'm just like, Thank you.

Jessi Cabanin: 47:17

Thanks. Okay, let's move on a little bit with with a copy. So I'm just curious. Like, I'm, I'm super curious. What would you say that the biggest misconception of copywriting is like, what do you hear a lot that like, makes you laugh? Like, what myths maybe? Would you debunk that, like you hear a lot about copy? Um, well, it shouldn't take that long. Nothing should take that long. Thanks, Amazon,

Samantha Campen: 47:48

right? Yeah, no, you stare at a blank page, just like in a cursor flashing at you. And that's where the, it's not just words on a page. Like, there's so much like, research, for lack of a better word, research that goes into it, and just creating, just creating the voice. That it's not just, I get off, I get off a call with you. And I can knock out your whole website, like in two hours, like, no. So it's, it's, yeah, just, uh, it shouldn't take that long. I mean, it's just, it's just three pages. Yeah. Well, well, like

Jessi Cabanin: 48:35

real talk, because I'm assuming that this has happened to us. I feel like this happens to me too, in obviously, in a different sense. But like, when someone says something like, well, like, just to write things like why would I hire someone for that? What how would you respond to that? Or how has that happened to you? Or like, how do you respond to that? Is a you know what, I don't even care how respectful your responses, right? Yeah.

Samantha Campen: 49:02

That specific wording, because no one would go to my website, see what I do, then make an appointment just to say that to me, right? So and if they did, I'd be like, Damn, you know, you went the distance like you are committed to coming to see me just to say that. I get a lot of, like, if I'm at a networking thing, or just introducing myself, like, not that I go to parties, but oh, I never even thought that that could be something that you'd hire out for. Like, you know, it's just, it's just not in their in their purview or whatever. But what I say on my website is you business owner, have your zone of genius, right, like you started your business so you could do your magical thing. And, yes, as a bit Business Owner, probably just starting out, you don't have a whole team, you're wearing all the hats. And all the hats aren't why you wanted to start your business. So, to save you time to save you stress, and to keep you making money out there doing your thing, let me take this off of your plate, because either the guilt is weighing you down, like I know, I need to get to that, but I just can't bring myself because I'm not a writer. I like writing is not what I do. I make candles and you know, play with sciency stuff and like make these potions and creations like, I'm not a writer. Yeah, I'm like, I get that. I don't make candles. I'm not an accountant. I'm not a resume coach, you know, so that's why I hire out for taxes, and you know, all these other things. So could I do my own taxes? Probably, it would take probably 10 hours of sobbing, crying, stressing out. I'm not even lying, like sweating all cookies and bottles of wine. Exactly. And then there's the chance that I could go to jail because I did it wrong. So

Jessi Cabanin: 51:23

I'm not gonna do that. Yeah, no, thanks. I'm out.

Samantha Campen: 51:27

I just recognize that business owners, everybody has their own zone of genius. And that's the leaning in part. It's just like, own what you're good at, that's going to make you money and not stress you out? And, you know, just make you question, Why did I even do this? Yeah, I could ease this burden, that will bring you money, like this copy will get out there, target audience, your brand voice, you know, nice and shiny, then then that's what I'm here for. I'm here to take that time suck away, whether it's through, you know, websites, social media, whatever. Because so many times they're just like, I know, I need to do it. I just don't have time, because I'm doing all the other things. I'm like, I get it, I totally get it. So just having people here that this is something I could hire someone for. And then the light bulb goes off like shit that sounds like please answer to my prayers. 1,000%.

Jessi Cabanin: 52:37

So yeah, I think education is a really important part of that which you guys are going to be seeing a lot more about that on the this way to fair by social media, because that is something that we are setting out to do to really get it out there. And to get people to understand what it is and why it's beneficial to hire a professional to do that. And I think it's really important to note that like, as women, we are constantly like second guessing ourselves. And we are constantly picking apart all the pieces about us, right? Like you look in the mirror, and you or you look in the mirror and you're like oh my god, this check is too tight, or my legs are so big, or my, my my mommy pooch or you know, whatever, and someone in the next room here and then you leave the room, you go to whatever and then like having that outsider view of you to like, explain you and to like act as you it's like a gift from God because we could spend months years going over and over and over. This can't be like I don't know, like, let someone else come in and tell you who you are, in a sense because like and get it done next and get it done and get it up because you know what? It's likely going to continue to change. copywriting is not something that you definitely like do once and then you're done forever. It's something that I usually tell my clients to audit their copy every year for their website to make sure that are the same people working there. Are you selling the same service? Are you in the same location? Do you have the same brand voice? Or did you sort of transition into a new target audience? Those are important things to remember when you are building that part of your website. So I want to dive into something a little bit deeper here quick because I think it's important. And we also recently experienced this together with one of our clients. When you think about the seasons of business, and the constant kind of ebbs and flows the roller coaster. What would you say is the best season to assess your either your current copy or you know, pursue the project of developing brand new copy?

Samantha Campen: 54:43

You mean like in terms of the seasons of growth? Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Okay. So, obviously, um, well, no, I don't want to say obviously because not every business owner needs to have a website day one, it depends on what their services are. So So I won't say that. I will say, it is great. When you know, this, this is what this is what I'm doing. And I know I'm getting a kick ass like, Yeah, I'm ready to invest in my business. Because not everybody can invest, they have to, like, you know, start slow. It's like, I'm ready to go like, to the wall with this, like, it's okay, here we go. So as you're ramping up, um, and then, to your point, if, if you've been in business a year and a half. And because you're in charge, you're the business owner, you can change things whenever the fuck you want. So if all of a sudden you decide, You know what, I don't like offering that service anymore, I want to tweak it and lean in more to this service.

Jessi Cabanin: 56:08

And I think that's huge in the beginnings of business. Yes, in the very first years of business that is very common,

Samantha Campen: 56:14

right, because one, I'm ready to redo my website, which I already talked to you about. I already had a change with my services. So it's like you never know when that's going to happen. But I'm also I've had people come to me, Hey, this is like our biggest seller, whatever it is, and that's great. With this audience, we want to elevate the next package to get a higher kind of customer or client. So we need to change the voice for that just a little bit. So if you are adding new services that are for a completely different audience, if you just decided, I'm not doing that anymore, I'm totally rebranding. And now I'm only doing consultancies, like, over zoom, you know, so then we need to change that. But and also to your point, it's good to audit your copy. Because when you're so used to it, it's easy to just forget about it. And honestly, how often are we on our own websites? We're probably not looking at them every day. So it's just like, Oh, it's this thing that's working for me in the background. Okay, it's chugging along,

Jessi Cabanin: 57:36

maybe you're not looking at yours every day, but I'm in there changing. God knows what every day. Well, okay.

Samantha Campen: 57:42

I'm just saying as an example, maybe not everyone is Jessie,

Jessi Cabanin: 57:46

that everyone's me, thank God for that I would feel bad for a lot of people. So it's just, you know, set the time on your calendar, to reevaluate your business to reassess it and to just look and make sure, maybe your pricing, maybe your pricing change? Absolutely, I was just gonna say that's more of a practice. That's just a good business practice. That's not even has nothing to do with copy or your web design or any of those things at this point. Like that's just good business practice to assess all of those things on a yearly basis to make sure that you're going in the right direction. Make sure that you're feeling fulfilled in the direction and that you're not wasting your own time and energy on something that's not actually right for you.

Samantha Campen: 58:26

Right, absolutely. That's why it's just like okay, no, I don't want to do this anymore. Because I sat down I thought about it. Do I kind of dread having to do this this thing that I'm offering well then that's a that's a light bulb moment. Yeah. So it's just like, Okay, I'm the boss. I don't want to offer that anymore. I really enjoy doing this so let's amplify that out there with with our copy with our strategy.

Jessi Cabanin: 58:50

Yeah, for sure. So I feel like I feel like a lot of listeners are probably like literally like oh my god, like they they see me I am the person like hiding in the corner raising my hand because yeah, I'm that person that hasn't done XYZ like gosh, I think it's time for me to like take a different approach to my brand and really focus on you know, building better copy. What is the biggest piece of advice that you would give to them when it comes to finding and hiring a

Samantha Campen: 59:18

copywriter? Well, email me. Me. I mean, sure. But just overall, I'm just as brand voice is important to your business. Make sure that you connect with the copywriter, either from the website or not some copywriters don't have websites and they're still amazing. But just make sure you have that connection. Because if they don't connect with you, it's going to be hard for them to establish that brand voice. And also, make sure or that they take brand voice into consideration instead of, oh, God, just a thought, like literally makes me shudder, like if they have a template or something. And that's like, what they what they use for all all of my home pages, you know, this is this is how I do it. It's like, oh my god. So, you know, every business and business owner is a special snowflake like they, they are their own unique, you know, like, you're not a cookie cutter. So your copy shouldn't be. And that's what I say. So it's like, make sure that your copywriter doesn't have like this, well, I have to check these three boxes, I always do this. And I always do this. And I always do that. It's just like, well, then are you seeing me and my business and my personality as an individual, like, so we can really dive deep and, you know, really get to what's important to me. And, you know, just just make sure that, you know, there's that there's that love fest, you know, just like the first time you know, that you meet, it's like, I really want to know that I connect, I connect with you. And vice versa. Like there are some clients that I just won't take on. Because it in the end, it never never goes the way it should. And I'm using the word should but yeah, when there's that feeling, I'm just like, I shouldn't take them.

Jessi Cabanin: 1:01:35

I'm a big believer in that gut feeling. You know, I'm a big believer in that gut feeling because, you know, there's a reason we get those gut feelings. There's a difference though, between a gut feeling and like, like butterfly fear, for me kind of thing. There's a difference. And figuring out the difference is sometimes half of the battle. But yeah, I feel like yes, like, totes, totes, McGoats, right? Totes, like, a special snowflake is now going to be my, my favorite term. Like ever. Everyone has

Samantha Campen: 1:02:05

their special snowflake thing. Yeah, I love you to do it, embrace it.

Jessi Cabanin: 1:02:10

I love that. Okay, so let's just say because I know that everyone's in a different season in business, I know that the way the economy is everybody is in a very different seasons of maybe their personal lives as well, their circumstance, whatever it is. So let's say that hiring a copywriter, it's just not in the budget right now. Like it is just not in the budget in the current season. You know, we're all there, like do not feel shame for being in a position where you do not have the budget to hire someone for something, that's okay, you should never feel shame for that. Because there are always seasons and every season is going to start and it is going to end and it's going to transition into something else all about prioritizing. I get it laid out professionals, we cost money. And it's definitely an investment, especially when you find that right fit, it's definitely an investment. So let's just say it's not in the budget, can you give our listeners two major tips for DIY buying their own copy, or a DIY maybe that maybe one tip for brand voice and one tip for like actually writing the copy?

Samantha Campen: 1:03:11

Well, I I'm big on inspiration. And I would I would recommend. And this doesn't have to be a similar website, in your own industry. It could be any brand that you love, and we all know good good branding, and you click on something you're just like, holy shit, like,

Jessi Cabanin: 1:03:36

approve that can't unsee that.

Samantha Campen: 1:03:38

I know I'm I'm haunted forever. And then I forward it to everybody because I'm like, if I look at this, you all have to look at

Jessi Cabanin: 1:03:45

it too. But then all of your friends start to send you like I get that all the time I get people who send me screenshots of things and they're just like, they need you in your their life. Things.

Samantha Campen: 1:03:54

Yeah, obviously. But go to a website if you're writing web copy, go to a few websites that you really like like either the the tone or the layout or even even how you break out, you know, sentences and if you like how they have like a couple sentences and then they have like a bulleted list and then it goes to like another sentence. whatever inspires you whatever you connect with. Use that as your inspiration. Obviously you're not going to copy it word for word we know not to do that.

Jessi Cabanin: 1:04:36

Do we though I mean I feel like that's worth saying again for the people in the back because just

Samantha Campen: 1:04:41

throwing it out there and I still reminder. copyright violation, whatever. So another episode, right? So just just get inspired because if this isn't something you've done before, then that can that can kind of get your juices flowing and you know get Have you some sort of creative spark

Jessi Cabanin: 1:05:03

that can help give you a little outline to I feel like just the types of information that you sort of need to fill? When I'm building web design, and I use if they don't have their imagery yet, and I'm using stock photos, I've gotten this numerous time where people will say, I know that's obviously a stock photo, but I know that it was really helpful to know what kind of photo I need to replace it with. So giving them sort of like, it gives them a starting point, to get an idea of the kinds of information that they need to gather. Okay, I like that was number two even.

Samantha Campen: 1:05:37

And even backing into it, like so many times. You could be like, Well, I don't know what I like, but I know I don't like that.

Jessi Cabanin: 1:05:45

Yes, so a huge believer in and just just cancel out the things you don't like, that's way easier. And

Samantha Campen: 1:05:50

that can also funnel you towards Okay, now now I kind of it's overwhelming when you've got the whole internet in front of you, it's like, right. Um, so that that's a suggestion. And then like actually writing it. I really liked your suggestion, I, I personally cannot do voice notes or, or anything like that is just not, I just can't. Yeah, so, um, but I know a lot of people can. So I really liked what you suggested. And just just talk, and then pull some things out of there. And then, you know, maybe make it grammatically correct throw in a comma, because I'm sure run on sentences. You know, like, when we

Jessi Cabanin: 1:06:38

Yeah, Siri doesn't always fully understand the assignment,

Samantha Campen: 1:06:43

right? And do that also, um, you know, ask, ask some family or friends like, okay, what are the three? The three descriptive sentences you think of when I'm thinking of my business? And then that can help launch your creativity? Or you could just use them? For sure. And then kind of kind of go from there. But yeah, looking at a blank page when you're not used to doing that when your zone of genius isn't writing. It's, it's intimidating. Yeah. And, and sometimes, I like, I still have like a paper calendar, and I love writing things by hand. So sometimes, that might be a better way to kind of Jumpstart. So it's totally okay, if you go full analog, and, you know, write things with a paper and pen. If you're just like typing, you know, that's not really what I do, then, you know, write it down. And maybe, maybe you see something when you're driving, and you're just like, oh, shit, I want to use that. And then, you know, jot it down.

Jessi Cabanin: 1:08:02

That is a reason why I use my phone the most, I think, because my best like, I mean, my million dollar ideas come to me when I'm driving in the freaking car. Yeah, I'm not gonna pull my notebook out and write on it and crash my car and all my dreams go out the window. But like, I have so many voice memos and just notes that were dictated like, words, because when you're thinking the clearest, you gotta write that down. You wanna you want to

Samantha Campen: 1:08:26

totally lose it. Absolutely. Yeah. Um, so I mean, I'm also, I also recommend setting time in your day, market on your calendar, like, Okay, I don't want to I'm scared, I'm intimidated, or I know, I won't do it right, or whatever. But I need to dedicate just this little bit of time, you don't have to two hours like no, if this isn't, if this isn't something you're used to. Don't overwhelm yourself, you know, say, like, 20 minutes, I will, I will just try to make a dent in my copy, and then build up your confidence and go from there.

Jessi Cabanin: 1:09:08

I think it's important to just start so like, even if you start typing, or you start writing, the first thing that you write now, right down might not be what actually makes it to your website, but it's better than a blank page, right? And it can start that momentum of starting to get something and you know what, you can also have people review it when you're done. You can always have someone else review it to say like, Hey, you know, like, Does this sound like me or you know, and compare. So I love this. I love I frickin love all of this. So, we always end our chats with the same important question. Okay, so what does success mean to you? How do you define it? Or how would you describe success?

Samantha Campen: 1:09:51

For me personally? Yep. Success means reaching my goals and you know, they they change all the time. Yeah, I'm reaching my goals and not going crazy while doing it.

Jessi Cabanin: 1:10:08

That's like a double win win right there. Because,

Samantha Campen: 1:10:11

I mean, I used to get off track, I made a very intentional choice. I'm like, I, I won't. I won't do anything that will absolutely jeopardize, like my mental health, which then trickles into my physical health, which then, you know, all the everything falls apart, like with the family, I'm just like, Okay, I'm not going to overburden myself. Yeah. And the waterfall effect. Right? Right. So reaching, reaching my goals. I always also have to feel like I'm in motion with my business. Like, it doesn't matter how small just like, just even the tiniest, tiniest bit of momentum towards what I want to do. Yeah. So So that's, that's important to me,

Jessi Cabanin: 1:11:05

too. Yes. I love that. Sam. Thank you so much for joining me today to open up the conversation, copywriting in general brand voice and just life as a mompreneur. You know, so many people relate to the things that we talk about that they wish that they either could talk about, or that they wish they heard it more, they I think that a lot of people have told me that they just feel a lot less alone, once they can hear others talking about a lot of the same problems that they have. And that is definitely part of the mission. So Sam, if listeners aren't totally vibing with this, they want more they need you in their life right now. Where can they find you? Or what is the best way for them to get in touch with you?

Samantha Campen: 1:11:50

My website is Maxi consulting llc.com. And I have a scheduler down at the bottom. And if you are looking for some copy love, then you can schedule a discovery call with me and we can chat but it goes over all of my copywriting services and the price starting points. And I just love to get hyped.

Jessi Cabanin: 1:12:16

Hell yeah.

Samantha Campen: 1:12:17

Hell yeah. I want to hear about your business. How can we how can we blow this shit up? Let's go.

Jessi Cabanin: 1:12:23

Blow this shit out. We're gonna blow this shit up. I am going to put all that shit she just said in the show notes so that it is nice and easy for you guys in case you are driving in the car or on your walk or whatever, you're not ready to actually reach out in this, like minute. I will link it all in the show notes for you guys. Sam, thank you so much for coming. I will share it with you guys soon. I hope you really enjoy today's conversation. I'm super curious to know what your biggest takeaway was from today. So go ahead and share this episode on social media. Make sure you tag me at this way to fabulous and let me know what you connected with. What did you learn from the episode and what action item are you going to take today? Until next time, guys, keep pushing, keep dreaming. And let's keep on redefining fabulous chatroom guys